Not an auspicious beginning.
When my friend Sonita started her series on Christian unschooling, I was interested in hearing what she had to say. I’ve never really researched unschooling, and don’t have time to look into it, so her view of education is probably going to be my whole experience of the unschooling mindset. Please bear in mind that, when I speak of unschooling, I am speaking of the impression that I get from one or two unschoolers on a single blog. I have no idea what the rest of them are doing.
After reading a post at Cows Don’t Moo, by guest blogger Jessica Bowman, I have a somewhat better idea of what it is these unschoolers are getting at. It looks an awful lot like moms teaching stuff to their kids in a child-led way, with lots of books and love. So far, so good. If that’s the way you want to roll, then I’m thrilled to look the other way while you do so.
But in explaining her own reasons for doing things the way she is doing them, Jessica says some things about classical (or perhaps just traditional) Christian education that I just can’t let slide. You see, Jessica thinks that, while Christians who use structured teaching are almost certainly not malicious in their intentions, they are really doing a grave disservice to their children.
They want to help their children succeed, be successful and respected, and use all that talent and energy one day to do good and work for the Lord. But they’re doing that with Latin curricula, and daily math lessons, and lots of memorization.And I can’t help but wonder, deep down – what does that have to do with anything? I mean, really.
What good does minute amounts of rote math do for anybody? And latin? Can you say “dead language”? And don’t even get me started on memorization.
[Cue horror movie sound effects] Oh, my goodness! Not that!
Yes, ma’am. Math lessons. Rote. Dry. Daily. That’s the way we cook it up and serve it around here. It works. I will admit that I don’t quite understand the use of the word “minute” here, as we’re actually doing copious amounts of rote math–albeit in minute detail.
I have no doubt that unschooling is an effective way to raise a child (for some). I think the children of unschoolers are unlikely to be illiterate, ill-mannered, or unable to cope as adults just because their parents didn’t make them learn dates and and sentence diagramming. Innumeracy seems to be a risk, since math is hard (or so I’m told), and not many kids are eager to do drills when they could be finger-painting. There are worse things than failing at Algebra, I guess.
If the parents are emphasizing love for Christ in bringing up their children, the unschooled student will come out light-years ahead of a secularly-schooled one in the most important life lessons. After all, Christ is our purpose. Everything else really is tangential. Because I believe this, I can say with a perfectly clear conscience:
You guys go right ahead and do that. More power to you.
When my friend (I have lots of lovely invisible friends on the internet) Mary Jo posted her opinion of unschooling, she gently expressed the same misgivings I have about it. Namely, that unschooling seems to be an extreme reaction to institutionalized schooling. In their haste to disassociate themselves from the stultifying environment of the assembly-line schools we’ve grown accustomed to, unschoolers throw the baby out with the bath water.
This knee-jerk rejection of formal study comes dangerously close to beatifying mental laziness.
Perhaps Jessica can’t see the point of math drills or Latin, but they do have one. When my kids are taking higher math (which is important, even for dumb hillbillies like me), they won’t have to interrupt their thought processes with trying to remember “useless” facts like 9*8=72. If the drills aren’t done in early childhood, the more difficult concepts can be lost because the student is focusing on simple calculations that should be second nature by high school.
The blogger also misunderstands the meaning of “dead” language. Latin is dead in the sense that no one speaks it as his native language anymore. It is most certainly not purposeless! Latin is useful in understanding the Romance languages. It’s the language of science and medicine. Latin is instructive in understanding English, which was shaped by Latin (due to historical influences which unschoolers will no doubt view as esoteric knowledge not relevant to modern living).
Unschoolers speak as though forcing (and forcing is precisely what I do, some days) my child to learn things he doesn’t “care” about will make him hate all learning. I haven’t witnessed that at all! What I’ve seen is that making my child do things that are contrary to the bent of his young mind is giving him the intellectual discipline to think hard thoughts, and his life is better for it. Growth hurts! This is true in every area of life, including education. Even if my children never use their knowledge of Latin or higher math in their “real” lives, the life of the mind will be richer for having to stretch to accommodate these disciplines.
Classical education is hard. It doesn’t take the path of least resistance. Sometimes it can be very frustrating for both the student and teacher. It is for this very reason that I continue to press my child even when he doesn’t want to learn. He needs to learn to push through the frustration. He is learning more than math when we do drills; he is learning to discipline his mind.
There is nothing particularly Christian about math drills, but there is something distinctly pagan in the notion that children–fallen human beings–have within them already the means to guide their own growth.
Can you raise a child without timelines, multiplication tables, and dead languages? Yes. He’ll probably be fine. Personally, I don’t think that’s good enough. And wouldn’t it be awful to find out when it’s too late that you’ve hobbled your child by refusing to give him the tools that he didn’t even know he needed, just because his immature will didn’t want to?



























{ 52 comments }
Twitter: steflayton
March 24, 2011 at 4:08 pm
=) you always make me giggle. “It seems this unschooler is opposed to dictionaries, as well as curricula”.
thanks for your point of view !
I actually took that part out after thinking about it for a minute. It was funny, but it wasn’t nice. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. It’ll live on in fond memory, though.
Twitter: HSHeartandMind
March 24, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Absolutely.
There’s something deceptively attractive about letting the kiddos choose their own way in the world. I mean, nobody thinks it’s fun to fight with them over things they don’t want to learn, right? But it kind of ignores the fact that life, for the most part, isn’t easy…and if I, after my almost 40 years of “experience” in the world still make mistakes, how can I expect my innocent babes to get on in the world without some real guidance from me. That’s what parents are for, right?
The fact is, unless my children are properly motivated, they aren’t going to do anything that is really hard for them to do…and there’s so much that worthwhile that’s really hard to do.
WOW! Excellent post, Cindy! And I’m not being prejudiced because of the linky! =)
I haven’t read Sonita’s posts yet, but I will definitely check them out. I’m pretty sure my response would have been “synonymous” with yours!
Twitter: FreeLifeHS
March 24, 2011 at 5:36 pm
No hard feelings at all-and you know-I’m gonna have to answer this with a post! LOL Which is what I want! Questions are good (as I think all homeschoolers would agree!) it’s how we learn.
But Cindy, PLEASE don’t get your whole view of unschooling from my little blog! PLEASE! Oh boy are you gonna make some radical unschoolers mad-cause I’m not a radical unschooler! LOL (some of them don’t like me cause my kids have bedtimes! And some homeschoolers don’t like me cause I unschool-I’m cool like that-nobody likes me! LOL)
I do want to say though, for the record here on your blag rather than a post on my own blog UNSCHOOLING IS NOT BEST FOR EVERYONE! Just like I think we can all agree PS isn’t best for everyone, school-at-home, classical, CM, none of these are best everyone.
There are many families that use one approach for one child and a different approach for another child in the same family-cause what’s best for each child is different!
And, BTW-I think Latin is awesome and will encourage my kids to learn it, but I will not force it on them. But-I’ll do a post about your post about my post hahahaha
Great post! You rock!
I just left a comment on Sonita’s blog. Not sure if it will get posted but there were a few things that really bothered me too.
Twitter: FreeLifeHS
March 24, 2011 at 7:46 pm
It did
Read the post you’re referring to, and I think I can sort of see what Jessica might be thinking; “Why would I do to my kids at home what school does out in the secular world if I expect my kids to be different?” Added to this, there seems to be a belief that a classical systematic form of educating is linked directly (and solely) to a mercenary materialist mindset.
On the mindset issue, I can’t agree. The best pastors I’ve ever met have been educated this way, and it doesn’t detract from their spirituality at all; quite the contrary, it’s given them a depth that I don’t believe they could have reached alone.
On the first point, we do this for the same reason we do anything else; it works. It not only teaches them how to find the meanings of words with dictionaries (I took two years of Latin), but it teaches them discipline, and for a Christian, I can think of no better an attribute.
My cousin lived for seventeen years eating nothing but french fries; her parents never forced her to try things she claimed in ignorance not to like. If you wouldn’t do that to her body, why would you do it to her mind?
Spot on, as usual, Jesse! I really think it boils down to discipline. As an adult, I have struggled so much with issues of self-control and self-denial. Do you know how many sins spring up when these are absent in your life?!? Well, I’m beginning to have an inkling… I don’t want that for my children.
Twitter: brandonmdodd
March 24, 2011 at 11:28 pm
Hi guys, I just wanted to say that I think that you’ve kinda misunderstood unschooling. The purpose of unschooling is to direct and guide our children instead of forcing them.
I actually prefer to call it “unforced learning” because that’s my goal as a parent. My goal is to never force my child to learn anything, but to expose them to tons of things…no I don’t mean exposing them to drugs and sex…I mean exposing them to latin, math, science, the arts, and most importantly, theology, doctrine, and a relationship with Christ.
I think that saying that our children won’t do hard things without being told is a very faulty assumption. You don’t have to force your children to be motivated, you have to cultivate motivation in them.
Even a two year old can understand that if they want something on the top shelf, that it will take work to climb up to get it. The motivation is cultivated by the circumstance.
By not forcing our children to learn, but instead creating an environment that’s all about learning, we teach them that learning is something that is natural.
And it is isn’t it?
Learning is natural, if it wasn’t, then children wouldn’t learn how to talk just by being around talking people. The problem is that we believe that children won’t learn if they’re not forced to learn, and so they don’t…until we do. Children rise or fall to our expectations wonderfully.
Please don’t think that I’m saying that our kids will figure it out all on their own, I’m not, and they won’t…they need our help. They just don’t need us to force our help on them.
They’ll ask us for help…all we have to do is create an environment conducive to learning, and then be there when they want to learn.
A couple great links (not mine I promise)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk60sYrU2RU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZFcDGpL4U
You didn’t read my post, either, did you? I didn’t misunderstand unschooling. The extent of my impression is that it is less structured and unforced–which is kind of what you’re saying, right?
This post wasn’t about unschooling, per se, but about what one unschooler said about classical education. I’m sure unschooling is fine for anyone who rolls that way…just like I said in the post.
Twitter: brandonmdodd
March 26, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Lol, yes Cindy I read your post, and yes that’s what I’m saying, I wasn’t just responding to you though, I’m actually grateful that you’ve been a calm voice on here.
I commented more for everyone else who is reading your post and not understanding unschooling.
I just wish people wouldn’t react so quickly and so harshly to something they haven’t taken time to understand…My wife was unschooled her entire life, her parents were christians and still had rules and consequences (hence unschooling not unparenting), but she still went to college, and she still held a 3.9 gpa, and she coaches volleyball, has held jobs in her profession and is perfectly normal both socially and societally.
It can be done, and it can be done well…
I believe in unschooling if for no other reason than, if you never make a child hate learning, then they’ll never hate learning. You won’t have to force them to do math, because they’ll want to…
*You don’t have to put this next part in, and really you don’t even have to approve this comment, I just try to always respond to anyone talking to me…I’m tired of the war going on here though. People are being too reactive to listen or be open minded. Anyways, that’s why I posted, not because I thought you in particular were misunderstanding, but because there’s alot of people in this room who don’t.
Thanks for listening, God bless!
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 24, 2011 at 11:54 pm
Hey, this stuff sounds familiar! Lol!
I just wanted to say that I’m not sure if I’d go as far to say “grave disservice”. My pain point in picking out a few typically rote subjects is to question their relevance to grown up life, for the majority of people. I don’t know a lot of people in their every day life that use higher math, or Latin. Although I do know of a teenage unschooler right now who is learning Latin just because she wants to.
And I would never advocate an environment without guidance. That’s a common misconception about unschooling. (Or a lumping in of all unschoolers with the most radical) Actually, the very reason I decided to homeschoool my children to begin with is because I wanted to disciple them. And, for me, a classical approach to “education” gets in the way of that. Although I’ll be the first to admit that a lot of that is personality driven and that some people are able to pull off a more traditional approach much more gracefully than I am.
And like always gets mentioned, every family, parent, and child is different. So more power to all of us! Lol.
Jessica, did you read my post? I specifically answered what use Latin is in modern living. I also never accused anyone of doing it without guidance. You, on the other hand, said this:
I don’t know a single Christian homeschooling family with malicious intentions. Not at all. Of course not! I mean, everyone means well, right? I don’t know a single parent who’s motivation isn’t somewhere in the vicinity of what is best for their child. Or what they think is best for their child.
In other words, you think that Christian homeschoolers are doing a disservice to their children. Yes, or no?
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 3:04 pm
Potentially, yes. But any post holds a certain amount of generalization. So saying “grave disservice” I felt was interpreting my thoughts, but then putting words in my mouth. So I just wanted to clarify that I’m not trying to doom and gloom exclusively classical homeschoolers. Lol.
And I just realized that I said “pain” point instead of “main” up there. Ha!
I think my point still stands, that I’m trying to address the majority. And while some scholarly types might find a use for, say latin or super advanced math. Most won’t, that was what I was getting at. But to the individual that want to do those things, I think that’s great for them.
I think you’re right, I think maybe you didn’t address the question of guidance but I saw it as a running theme in the comments so I just wanted to clarify a bit on that for anyone interested. Hope you don’t mind.
I appreciate the dialogue.
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Oh, I felt led to come back and say, it’s really not that I’m opposed to or wholly ignorant of the subject of language(s). My husband is actually a trained Linguist! He has spent years studying, learning, and working with other languages. So we actually have an appreciation for language around here!
I wonder how he became a trained linguist? Could it have been because at one time he was forced to learn something he didn’t think he wanted to learn, and then ended up enjoying it and chose to continue that pursuit? Could memorizationa and drill also have been involved? I wonder…
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Well, he chose a profession he was interested and then learned a language from the area of the world he was interested in doing missions in. But of course, no one forced him to chose that profession or training.
How did he choose a profession, I think, is the bottom line. I’m sure at some point in his life, he was forced to learn something, or else how would he have known about the profession he chose? A young adult who has never been taught (required to learn) something doesn’t just “up and say” hey, I want to learn Latin! Or, hey, I want to become a missionary. Or whatever. They are required to learn something that in turn piques their interest, which is great. The required learning is necessary. A child doesn’t decide to learn spelling on his/her own. Or times tables. Or geography. They must be required to learn certain things so that they may choose when they are old enough. No one forced him to choose that profession, but he wasn’t a child when he chose it. I think you missed my point.
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 26, 2011 at 10:39 am
I’m afraid we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
My son chooses to practice spelling every day, on his own. In fact, he holds spelling Bees with his sister, spontaneously. He also gets maps down to look up different countries, because it interests him. And he enjoys doing math in his every day life, because it’s everywhere. None of this is “required” of him. And, as I’ve said somewhere in these comments, I know of a teenager right now that up and said “Hey, I want to learn latin.”
But children who are “required” and “forced” the majority of the time, have much less of this inner drive to learn and explore on their own. And that’s why most parents think a child just “will not up and fill-in-the-blank”.
But, given a rich, interesting environment, and attentive, supportive parents … they absolutely will.
This philosophy is not “no schooling” (Unfortunately the label “un” was coined in the 70′s and I had nothing to do with it). It’s LEARNING in a totally different atmosphere and environment. It’s extremely attentive parenting.
“But children who are “required” and “forced” the majority of the time, have much less of this inner drive to learn and explore on their own.”
I must be unschooling, My child asks for spelling all the time! But if he didn’t I would require it of him. He can’t just decide he doesn’t want to. This hasn’t taken the joy of learning from him, contrary to this idea that “force” will make it a horrible experience for him. I think we disagree less than I thought we did at first, if that makes any sense.
I would like to take a moment to say that I don’t agree with the ill-tempered flame war that has started up. I can’t apologize for the behavior of others, and I don’t moderate my comments (unless someone gets really nasty), but I hope you know I have a great deal of respect for you, and for what you are doing. I just don’t think it is the best way (for us).
Twitter: fromtracie
March 25, 2011 at 12:00 am
I spent a long time with my daughter today over a book report that she did NOT want to write. But I held firm, and write it she did. And at the end of the day, she was very happy to show it to her dad when he came home and talk about the new word that she learned how to spell. She wouldn’t have had that “reward” at the end of the day if I hadn’t “forced” her to put in the work this afternoon.
Yesterday, my four-year-old brought me a handful of buttercups that she had picked. But, instead of giving them to me, she decided to plant them in her “garden”. I didn’t say anything, but watched the painstaking care that she took to dig up the ground, plant the flowers, pat the earth around them, and water them. Her garden looked beautiful!
This morning, she was horrified to discover that her flowers had wilted and died during the night. Why? Didn’t she do everything right? Didn’t they look beautiful when she went to bed?
So, I got to teach her a hard fact of life: without the roots, plants cannot keep living. Without a foundation, a house will not stand. And without math drills, grammar lessons, and Latin verb conjugates, our schooling may look beautiful– but will it hold up in the end?
I must confess that “unschooling” is very appealing to my flesh. But from what I have seen, heard, and read, it is in contradiction to what the Word of God teaches us about training our children in the way they should go. So, as a true gardener, I desire to tend the roots, even though they are not nearly as pretty as the flowers.
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 10:39 am
Hi Mary Jo. I’ve noticed you use that verse a lot. And it’s a great one. But it might be important to remember that Proverbs aren’t promises. They’re wise sayings. And that isolated verse does not actually define the “way”. Obviously, the way, the truth, and the life is Jesus Christ. Not math drills, grammar lessons, and latin verb conjugates. We certainly can’t take the leap to say training them up in these things will make them not depart from the Lord. I feel like I’m not neglecting my children’s foundation, but in fact the opposite. For me personally, I’m choosing what I feel is best, instead of neglecting the best for the “good”. I hope that makes sense! But as I said before, I acknowledge that some people are able to do both the best and the good more gracefully than myself. But for me personally, I feel to choose the “good” is the neglect the “best”. (Again, for myself).
Are you saying that because Jesus didn’t do math drills, we shouldn’t either? Are math drills somehow antithetical to Christ’s nature? Please explain why you seem to think these things are mutually exclusive. All of truth is God’s truth. That includes the times tables.
Also, Proverbs are holy scripture. Jesus believed that they were holy scripture. I see you treat the scriptures with the same cavalier attitude that you treat Latin (which, by the way was an important language in Jesus’ time and province, and which he would have had at least a passing acquaintance with. Surely that makes it useful in some way?) Your argument seems to amount to: Don’t bother me with all that Old Testament stuff. I’m busy thinking about Jesus.
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,” so when you say so flippantly that we can ignore that verse because Jesus didn’t say that (
), you’re treading some very thin theological ice. Is that really what you mean?Y
what verse, anyway? I don’t see a verse in Mary Jo’s commentNevermind I see it.Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 3:31 pm
Hey. No, I was just concerned that Mary Jo comes across like she thinks those things ARE “the way” that we need to train our children in ACCORDING to that proverb. (Sorry for the caps, I would prefer italics there. Lol) I don’t think I said we can ignore it (Goodness no!) but that it’s not a promise. My background comes from a denomination almost conservative to a fault, and that’s an understood teaching. “Proverbs aren’t Promises”. They’re scripture (obviously) and they’re practical, and they’re largely based on wisdom (and are basically a collection of wise sayings.
But when Proverbs 3: 1-8 says :
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.
8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.
The bit about health isn’t a promise. Or when the next two verses say:
9 Honor the LORD with your wealth,
with the firstfruits of all your crops;
10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing,
and your vats will brim over with new wine.
It’s still wise, practical advice that should definitely be followed, but it’s not a promise. To take all of the proverbs literally would be to become a prosperity preacher. That’s what I was getting at. Even the verse “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” is not a promise. But very practical, generalized, advice (not to be ignored).
Hope that makes sense.
Thank you! I was having trouble following your logic. I hope you know I didn’t think that’s what you really meant! I was just a little confused.
I don’t think the Bible requires us to teach multiplication tables at a certain age. I’m pretty sure what Mary Jo is getting at is that the Bible informs our understanding of human nature as something that requires training, and doesn’t discipline itself of its own accord. This is true whether we’re speaking of spiritual matters where the Holy Spirit must chasten us or educational ones where the human authority must do so. We simply do not know what is good for us. To use another commenter’s analogy, if you put a cookie on a shelf, a two-year old will motivate herself to get it, by whatever means possible. I don’t doubt that in the slightest. What I doubt is that she’ll go to the same lengths to acquire life-saving medicine if it tastes bad and there’s a cookie on a lower shelf that she’d rather have.
Um. Yes. Proverbs ARE promises! A thorough grammatical dissection of them would lead anyone to conclude that quite logically! Whether they’re inspired or not is a subject of much debate, but they ARE promises.
Of course I don’t believe that my children are going to come to Christ because I taught them mathematical facts or Latin verbs! But the Scripture does have a lot to say about the way we bring up our children– which makes me conclude that it IS important.
Contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe that childhood is some innocent age of fun and games before real life strikes, but it is the training ground FOR life. It is boot-camp. And boot-camp isn’t all about fun and games. It’s about training. Does that mean it has to be a horrible experience for the child? No. But I’m not here to make my children happy. I’m here to teach and to train them in accordance with God’s Word.
Amen! The foundation has to be there FIRST.
I skimmed through some of the comments and then just let my head fall onto the table.
This “unschooling” idea must have been created by a teenager. My son would absolutely love not to have to learn anything. Unfortunately math is important, science is important, history is important, language, english, creative writing, art, music, biology… everything that a kid hates is important. Broccoli is important, Carrots too, so is wheat bread and grapes. Laundry, that’s important…. lets not forgetting showering. Chores, those dreadful things are important. So is raising children, that’s pretty important even though I don’t feel like doing that all the time. I should apply for a “un-parenting” course because I feel like these kids are forcing something on me. /sighs
What is wrong with the world. Of COURSE children do not want to learn all this crap. I didn’t want to learn any of it either but even a job at Mc Donalds requires Mathematical skill. I’m really happy my son has no idea about this “un-schooling” thing because he would absolutely love not to have to do anything that he was ever forced to do. Sadly he has me for a mother who actually believes learning is important even when it forces you to think, vegetables are important because they have these neat things called vitamins, laundry is important (apparently my 13 year old doesn’t believe me) so that we’re wearing clean clothes, showers (what is wrong with teenage boys) for hygiene. And chores, most of all, the act of responsibility so that maybe one day both of my children will grow up and learn to be responsible people that know how to take care of themselves and be able to support the lives they want with that that awful horrid forced education.
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 7:16 pm
I know this concept is so hard to understand. I mean, on the surface it seems very simple to understand. So simple that people think it’s crazy. But in practice it’s a total paradigm shift because children do not act in the way that we assume they will when given freedom and not “forced” to learn.
My children love vegetables. My Ten Year Old chooses bell peppers, apples, carrots, and celery as snacks. She also keeps her room clean. And folds her own clothes. And takes care of 3 animals. And I don’t force her to do any of it.
My children do math and spelling for fun. They learn spanish for fun. They immerse themselves in subjects like Ancient Egypt and Medieval times, and Insects, and deep sea creatures. They read constantly. They write. They love to work in the yard. They’re clean. They’re well behaved. And they do all of this because they want to. Not because I schedule those things for them.
However, a child who has been “schooled” for 10 or so years, will be much less likely to use his free time constructively, because so much of his time is already forced. Of course he’ll just want to sit around in pajamas and watch sponge bob. He’s burnt out. And that is the paradigm that most parents are coming from when they try to wrap their brains around interest led learning. They think, “All my child is interested in is video games! If I don’t make them do their book report, they’ll never do it!” Etc.
But given more freedom, children can be delightful creatures who use their time wisely because they choose to. That is at the very heart of Unschooling.
It was very hard for me to understand at first, too. I had the same reactions as some of you. I thought, “Whatever!” My kids would eat twinkies and never stop watching TV if I let them make their own choices.”
Unschooling (or more appropriately, Life Learning) is not children not learning. It’s children learning all the time. Because they aren’t immersed in an environment where they’ve learned that math is rote, and reading is onerous, or history is boring (like is the case with some children). All those subjects are still new and interesting and not associated with a worksheet or copywords or any other rote manner of instruction. They are inwardly motivated.
Again, I know it’s very hard to understand at first. Or to even consider trying to think differently about how children learn, or what children will choose if given more freedom over their choices.
I think I’ll leave this discussion now, but I hope everyone involved in the comments will remain open to considering things differently. Here’s the link to a formerly unschooled girls blog. The first test she ever took was the S.A.T.’s and she went on to harvard. She’s also just plain witty, and she writes very insightfully on how unschooling taught her to learn.
http://un-schooled.net/
Thanks again for the discussion.
My son is 2 and he loves to learn, all little kids love to learn, and then they turn into teenagers and unless you have one you have NO idea what you are talking about.
So I suppose by this definition I was “un-schooled”. I didn’t care much for all that forced education and my Mother didn’t see fit to deal with me as I thought I knew enough or was smart enough. Well… I really was smart, just also very stupid. I got pregnant when I was 16, and through a hell (‘scuse me Cindy) of a lot of sacrifice, heart ache, and morally wrong though necessary actions I made it somewhere. One would say I learned a lot, but let me tell you something. I would gladly go back and have my Mother force Alegbra down my through 24 hours a day than to have learned the hard way as it was called in my time. In my day (as now you are making me feel old) this wasn’t called un-schooling, it was called giving up. It was the easy way out.
That one girl (or maybe even a few) may have un-schooled her way to Harvard but I assure you that the majority of the children that are in this un-schooled way are not being taught what they need to and will sadly, as I did, find out the hard way. But that’s what “un-schooling” wants… for LIFE to teach their children, just let them figure it out on their own, let them decide what is important. Children have NO idea what is important in life or in the real world, they have NO idea what is out there, they have NO idea what hurt the world beyond Home can cause, children have NO idea what is best for them. /sighs I’ll just wait until your little wonderful, loves to learn the colors children grow up to be teenagers and then you can come back to me and let me know how that “un-schooling” thing worked out.
Twitter: BohemianBowman
March 25, 2011 at 10:34 pm
Well, I was one (a teenager, that is). That counts for a little something, right?
I feel like your past is fueling your anger and it’s causing you to not hear what I’m saying. But that’s okay. And I get it. A person’s past paints their perspective of an issue.
Ironically, I came from a hellish background and had my first child at 17. But my past experiences have brought me to a place where I feel like the LAST thing I needed was an algebra lesson. I needed discipleship. And a loving environment where I could pursue my God given talents in acceptance and respect. Where I was guided and mentored in what is important in life (discipleship). Where I was exposed to the real world more, and all age ranges, not just the punks in my own “grade”.
Again, hard for people to understand. But Unschooling isn’t “giving up” or “unparenting”. It’s having to be WAY more engaged with your children on a personal and respectful level. Having to help them pursue their interests and teaching them in a very relevant, applicable way about the world and how math and reading and science and history connect it all together. It’s not (like has been stated several times already in this discussion thread, but you may not have had time to read all of the comments) letting them figure everything out on their own. It is NOT mother’s “not seeing fit to see to their children” as is your experience. It is the exact opposite of that.
That’s probably one of the biggest things I wish people could understand.
by the way. i didn’t write that fueled by anger about my past. i became an amazing person and i believe in forgiveness. i fueled that with the frustration i feel at parents who don’t believe in the importance of education. we are supposed to want better lives for our children.
awhile ago there was this generation that decided they wouldn’t be so hard on their kids as their parents were hard on them and then the generation of children ruling the parents came and parents had NO idea what to do. we watch stories of children abusing parents, there are now self help books, etc. why? because that generation didn’t feel discipline was necessary. so now here comes the generation of parents who feel education as in the education that the people created this country for. FREE education, public school (well, and now homeschooling)… that’s what this country was founded for. the freedom to have that. if you went to i urge you to go speak to children in middle america, south america, africa, iran, pakistan, china, japan…. anywhere! go ask them what they think of this “un-schooling”. the education that our children here in America are given freely is something so many children around the world would give their lives for. so… my frustration is fueled by the ignorance that the education, whether at home or public school, is not worth it.
and no, it does not count that you were a teenager. you have yet to experience having a teenager which is entirely different.
apparently typing on my phone isn’t very intelligent as it creates so many mistakes. lols. oh well. i’m done. i don’t know why i ramble anyways, there is no changing the minds of people. i just hope there are more educated children running this country than un-educated(schooled) children when i get old or god help us all.
Oh, I am coming unglued! It was everything I could do not to comment on that other blog post, but I am trying to practice kindness andcompassion, and I just couldn’t think of anything nice to say about “unschooling.” I agree 100% with YOUR assessment.
The fact is, regardless of our children’s faith, they are going to have to compete for jobs to sustain their own families someday in a global economy with students whose priorities are built on all of the “useless” facts that blogger deems unacceptable. If we are really thinking of what’s best for kids, then we should design the curriculum for them, taking what we know as adults to be important, and presenting it to them in ways appropriate for their ages, genders, and learning styles. Anything less is cheating our children. Sometimes that means drill.
I would rather my child be a little bored in school (or in “home” school) and get what he/she needs for a well-rounded education than leave it up to chance (the other blogger would call it faith, but to me, that is ignorance, not faith). I agree with her that kids need time to play, read, relax, explore, but there is a time and place for all of that as well as a time and place for structured education, not to mention, a need for it, in my humble opinion.
Twitter: FreeLifeHS
March 28, 2011 at 9:07 am
“If we are really thinking of what’s best for kids, then we should design the curriculum for them, taking what we know as adults to be important, and presenting it to them in ways appropriate for their ages, genders, and learning styles. Anything less is cheating our children. Sometimes that means drill. ”
Maybe sometimes it means unschooling? Maybe drilling doesn’t work for my kid, maybe he’s very self motivated and curious and open minded and learning just fine unschooling? Maybe drills is cheating my child, because he doesn’t respond to them?
Just sayin’
what you are describing is homeschooling, without .. the schooling portion. I’m a stay at home mother so I’m pretty engaged in my children’s lives but school is necessary. I tried the homeschooling thing for one year and if I didn’t force my son to do it he would have sat around and ate Cheetos all day while playing video games or watching TV. yes, he would ask me some questions and learn a little. yes, he could learn math through needing to know how much a candy bar costs but it’s not enough. we’re supposed to push them, guide them and yeah… sometimes make them do things they don’t want to do. that’s Parenting. I repeat, children have NO idea what is best for them. they’re children.
I couldn’t have said it better, Manda.
Twitter: FreeLifeHS
March 28, 2011 at 9:19 am
I do guide my children.
We have curriculum and a classroom and often times reach our limit on my library card.
We take field trips, do science experiments, do worksheets, take classes (not currently-due to finances, but will again when money allows), etc
I really wonder if many of the commentators really have much of an idea what Christian unschoolers *really* do. Seeing as Cindy is a homeschooler and this is a post about a form of homeschooling, I would assume most commenters are homeschoolers as well. I would think homeschoolers would be better at researching something than just jumping to conclusions after reading 1-2 articles somewhere.
I spend a great deal of time and effort looking for things for my kids to learn. I might have to be more creative than you (general you) because I don’t follow a box curriculum, but we get in our 4.5 hours of school each day and our 5 required state subjects + subjects I think are important too.
We’re really not that much different from most homeschooling families I know other than I follow my child’s interests, and with a little creativity and I can turn his love of bugs or chickens into a lesson that spans every subject and not have to fight with him to the point of tears (like we used to) just to get him to do school.
Education is very important to me-it’s why we choose to homeschool and found our way to unschooling-cause it works for my kids.
Twitter: whatever_41
March 26, 2011 at 2:00 am
I usually just lurk here, but I have to say…I do “get” unschooling, (even if it isn’t my cup of tea)…and I think the unschooling philosophy has definite points. I find many “learning issues” are better handled with just backing off a skill they can’t seem to absorb just yet, and coming back to it a few times (gently) later.
NOT all children mature at the same rate. I am thoroughly convinced that waiting a bit until they mature a little more, can help some children TREMENDOUSLY. Without crushing their confidence.
I am not comfortable with completely child led learning. I think there needs to be some structure. But I have seen a completely frustrated child come back at a concept 6 months later, and suddenly “get it”. I am willing to wait till maturity catches up…to keep frustration levels low. This is one of the lovely things about homeschool.
Some kids don’t do well with rote memorization…but are masters of conceptual learning. Some are the opposite. One thing I DO know is…no two are identical.
What you are describing isn’t no-schooling, it’s just being a good parent; being attentive.
My eldest son goes to a public school because he refuses to be taught by me. The school gives him a structure he can’t mentally grasp at home. However, I work /with/ the school. He has a few learning difficulties because of the way he thinks so when there is something he doesn’t understand he is allowed to bring that work home, even if it’s class work to be done in class. All homework is to be brought home as well, regardless of whether or not he finishes it in Tutoring or Study Hall. We go over everything and if he doesn’t grasp something then I explain it to him in terms he can understand. As he is very adept at video games to some outstanding level, I explain to him mathematics, history, strategy, etc through what he can understand. He hates spelling, hates writing, hates anything to do with those things but because those things are important I put him at a computer and I tell him to write/type. Then he can see what words he is getting incorrect and we go over them in a way he will understand. (This we also do when he misses words on a spelling test.) I explain to him in amusing ways how to remember countries in Geography. Once he had a project to build an island and it’s surrounding areas with all map components. To make it easy for him to understand we created it around the show Family Guy, using the characters as countries and the Dad as the mainland. This is not no-schooling, he is not in control of his curriculum, however I am not just “tossing him to the wolves”, I am teaching him on a level he can understand because I’m a good parent.
The idea would be nice for the rare few individuals it might work with, but these concepts don’t apply in the real world. You cannot tell a boss, “I have my own way of learning things, come back to me in six months.” You cannot tell your spouse that either (although I wish sometimes). You can’t say to your kids, “I don’t know how to deal with you, let me go figure that out and I’ll get back to you in a few months.” You don’t get that luxury in the real world. It is doing a disservice to them to give them that inherent belief. Additionally, the real world expects you to have a diploma and an actual education. Maybe one, maybe a few of those no-schoolers went off to college (the ones more border-line on homeschooling rather) but in general it’s just not going to work. You are learning more at school (public or homeschool) than just a few numbers and letters, you are learning how to deal with the world on the outside of the comfort levels of home. You are learning how to deal with people, you are learning how to wake up every day at a specific time for a job, you are learning how to deal with difficult situations (socially, mentally, emotionally, physically), you are learning how to be taught and how to listen; you are learning how to be capable of surviving in today’s world. If anything we need more education, at home and outside of the home. Better teachers, paid and parents alike. We need more people that are steadfast, because what is out there is going to be 3x more difficult for the generations we’ve created and the worst thing we can do at this point is not give them the tools to carry on. Even Cave Men had Math.
Twitter: whatever_41
March 27, 2011 at 2:26 am
Manda-
“You cannot tell a boss, “I have my own way of learning things, come back to me in six months.” You cannot tell your spouse that either (although I wish sometimes). You can’t say to your kids, “I don’t know how to deal with you, let me go figure that out and I’ll get back to you in a few months.” You don’t get that luxury in the real world. It is doing a disservice to them to give them that inherent belief.”
I guess I would be concerned if there was any possibility my 22 year old still reasoned with the same logic he used when he was 12… (when I was a child, I thought as a child…but when I became old, I put away childish things)
The issue is allowing MATURITY to catch up to the task at hand. Of course by the time the person is employed, or married, they would obviously be far more mature! That logic is simply ridiculous!
Homeschool doesn’t JUST take place in the home, you realize, of course? Homeschooled kids take classes with OTHER homeschoolers (in fact…mine are TEACHING some co-op classes in the younger grades-with adult supervision)
They participate in sports and scouts and other “REAL LIFE” situations. You sound as if you think we lock them in their room 24/7.
It isn’t about not being challenged! It is about not being made to feel like an utter failure, because your brain isn’t quite ready to master something just yet. Because you are developing along YOUR normal timeline, not someone elses’.
A concept most public schools cannot quite grasp. They want everyone to fit in a neat box, or convince them they are “defective” somehow. That is nonsense.
Consequently, I have a child who has in the past struggled in math…but finds my college A&P textbooks to be the most fascinating things EVER…and the math is suddenly (shockingly) rapidly catching up! (They now say…this math is EASY-in a STATISTICS unit!) And they don’t feel like a failure and hate school because of it…
Twitter: FreeLifeHS
March 28, 2011 at 9:26 am
We’re not no-schoolers. We’re unschoolers. It doesn’t mean no education.
I’m a good parent too
Twitter: tammigirl
March 26, 2011 at 10:43 am
When I hear people say ‘Latin is a dead language, so it’s a waste of time to learn it’ I think they probably haven’t studied it a day in their life. If you know some Latin vocabulary you are much more apt to know the meanings of English words. It’s especially helpful with English words you are unfamiliar with when there is no dictionary handy.
I really wish people would take the time to learn about what they are talking about. Preferably before they begin talking.
Twitter: whatever_41
March 27, 2011 at 2:31 am
I found Latin to be quite useful. Once you know some Latin, it is cake to pick up any of the romance languages…and it made medical terminology so much easier in college!
Twitter: FreeLifeHS
March 27, 2011 at 9:22 am
Okay so I read MOST of the comments but not quite all yet-but I did want to say a few things I saw brought up.
Unschooling doesn’t mean my kids don’t learn.
Unschooling doesn’t mean we don’t value education-it just means we are taking a different road than you (general you) to get to the same destination.
Unschooling doesn’t mean my kids are left to do whatever they want 24/7
Cindy’s hubby says “My cousin lived for seventeen years eating nothing but french fries; her parents never forced her to try things she claimed in ignorance not to like. If you wouldn’t do that to her body, why would you do it to her mind?”
That just isn’t realistic for most people. (barring special needs and people with mental illness like OCD or something) but for the average person (especially a child) they aren’t going to eat just one thing and they are going to want to learn about new things.
While I don’t force my son to do math drills (which BTW he actually likes haha) but I don’t force him to read, he likes to work on phonics, so we work on phonics and I encourage him to read, but I don’t force it. This year he has made 10 times more progress in reading this year than last year in PS when he was forced to read daily.
As has been said-nothing is one size fits all, each child/family is different-my child is quick to shut down when he gets upset/frustrated. If I forced him to do a ‘school-at-home’ approach he wouldn’t learn near as much as he does. Because he shuts down. We’ve been there done that with PS and homework. It does not work for him.
Instead I offer up new and interesting things and see which one he takes to then we go with that. Right now he’s very into our chickens/hatching eggs. So, last week I started gathering up resources on chickens/eggs http://cowsdontmoo.com/homeschool-resources/unit-study-chickens-eggs/ we’ll work on these the next few weeks, along with whatever else strikes his interests.
I’m constantly placing things in their path that catch their interests. I don’t just sit back and let them run wild and hope they learn something.
And-to clarify-we are NOT radical unschoolers, we are Christian unschoolers, my kids have rules, bedtimes, etc I’m very much a hands on parent, and very much training them up in the way they should go and giving them a good foundation built on Christ.
Twitter: reallifesarah
March 29, 2011 at 9:13 am
Admittedly, I haven’t read all the comments, but your post is very well thought out and spot on in my opinion. Watching the example of my public pre-schooled child (GASP!), I think there is a middle road here.
She watches for their interests and passions and uses THOSE to teach classical concepts! Are they learning addition? Do they love race cars? OK, let’s add race cars, learn vocabulary by writing a story about race cars. Read about race cars. You could take this further down the road (pardon the pun), by using race cars as the catalyst for physics, acceleration and velocity. You could do a history piece on the advent of the motor car and the industrial revolution.
There is something really cool about the ability to homeschool- craft your curriculum specifically to your child, while still teaching all the skills they will need for life. (Yes, they need to be able to calculate interest, or figure out meanings of new worlds, ala Latin)
Can I just say one thing that I don’t think is even addressed here about home school/ unschool/ public school. We live in a very unique time. 100 years ago you could kind of predict what kind of world your child was going to grow up in. You knew that he was going to need (fill in the blank) skills in order to be “successful” in life.
Right now, today, we can not accurately look down the road even 5 years. we have NO IDEA what we’re going to encounter, we have no idea what direction technology is taking us. We have NO IDEA what our children are going to need to know in 5 years, let alone 10 or 20.
What they need most is to be taught how to think, how to find information, how to learn. NOT what to think, what to know, what to learn.
Look at the “successes” today, the people who have really made it. Who are they? They are usually drop outs with outside of the box thinking and a passion. They are not typically well rounded people who are proficient at math, science, and grammar. These people are extreme. These people are the ones building our future. Instead of knocking them, and how poorly they are at spelling, lets give them the tools they need to make a difference and do what they love.
*and, yes, I did read your post, lol*
“I think the children of unschoolers are unlikely to be illiterate, ill-mannered, or unable to cope as adults just because their parents didn’t make them learn dates and and sentence diagramming. ”
This pretty much sums up enough of your judgmental thoughts towards unschoolers for me. If learning dates and sentence diagramming leads to illiteracy, ill mannerisms, and lack of coping skills as an adult, I guess you can just lump us in that little box you just created. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. Our kids don’t sit around, twiddle their thumbs, and learn nothing all day. We read, we play, we work on our manners and how we treat each other as a whole family, and we associate with people of all ages and all walks of life (as I’m sure you do, as well.) We are not all that different from your family. The only difference being, we don’t force our kids to memorize, copy, and “study” things they are not interested in. My 5yo son has long been a lover of geography and math, and is in the beginning stages of reading, without all of the sit-down, forced learning that you believe is required.
But, if you want to continue living in your remote little corner of the universe, so be it. By the way, do you even know any unschoolers in real life? It doesn’t sound like it!
Okay, totally admitting that it’s late, i’m tired, and I read your sentence wrong. But, my reply still stands, because rereading the comments, there is still some issue with unschooling as being just letting our kids do whatever they want and not “make” them learn anything. That we are somehow doing them a disservice.
Fact is…
“Our kids don’t sit around, twiddle their thumbs, and learn nothing all day. We read, we play, we work on our manners and how we treat each other as a whole family, and we associate with people of all ages and all walks of life (as I’m sure you do, as well.) We are not all that different from your family. The only difference being, we don’t force our kids to memorize, copy, and “study” things they are not interested in. My 5yo son has long been a lover of geography and math, and is in the beginning stages of reading, without all of the sit-down, forced learning that you believe is required.”